well this discussion is basically attended for isrealis. but anyone could add his opinion.
i want to know if anyone knows whats the border that limits isreal.
i want to know if anyone knows whats the border that limits isreal.
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Re: there's still the border issue
Wed, May 26, 2004 - 8:07 AMIsrael's borders seem to be subject to expanion on a whim. Life Magazine published a special report on Israel many years ago in which they congratulated them for having increased their territory by a large percentage (I forget the actual figure, but it's outdated now anyway) since achieving statehood without ever questioning WHERE that added territory came from, or what became of the people who owned it. Most Americans seem to believe the truth of the old Zionist motto: "A land without a people for a people with no land." The political Zionists worked hard for generations before Israeli statehood to make that notion into a perceived truth.
I am not Israeli, but understand from my reading on the subject that many Israelis -- those who oppose what their goverment are doing to expand those borders -- favor withdrawing from any territories occupied since 1967. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Mon, July 26, 2004 - 8:00 PMI think most Israeli people, officials and supporters, jewish and non, recognize returning to the "Green Line", or pre '67 borders as the fair and moral action, in return for a permanent peace and recognition. I also believe that the cost of the continued occupation or adminstration of the West Bank/Gaza strip is far too high, from an Israeli perspective in financial, ethical and human terms, to continue perpetually. The border represents the 1948 armistice lines - basically the portions of mandatory Palestine controlled by Jordan and Egypt respectively at the end of the war. I don't believe there is any particular moral or political prohibition to either Israelis or Palestinians to claim the land on either side of the line. There were both Jewish and Arab populations in all area of the Mandate, however the original partition get up the Jewish state in the most concentrated areas of Jewish settlement and the Palestinian state in the areas with an overwhelming Palastinian majority. Bridget, you may not agree with my understanding of the history, but I think it is fair to say that both sides recognize withdrawal from the territories and a two state solution as the best immediate chance for peace. That said, I believe that East Jerusalem must have some sort of shared autonomy, and some concessions of the border ought to be made on both sides; The city of Hebron for example has deep cultural and religious connections to judiasm and a significant Jewish population and should be open to Israelis. Likewise, Israel must work to ensure all forms of discrimination against arab citizens, official or not be eradicated within its borders, and should offer full Israeli citizenship to a limited number of Arabs work apply to return. However, there must be a recognition inherent in the peace process of the state of Israel Proper's unique purpose in maintaining a Jewish cultural character, without discrimination, but in the same sense as a state of Palestine would and the rest of the arab world does have a uniquely arab cultural character. Therefore, the Palastinian claim of full right of return must be rescindend in favor of fair compensation for all refugees and their decendents displaced by the wars of '48 and '67.
That's my take on it. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Mon, July 26, 2004 - 8:48 PMOne other comment I have to make:
Why is Israel the only nation in the world that is villified for attempting to control access to its own border?
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Re: there's still the border issue
Tue, July 27, 2004 - 12:43 AMbecuase its not trying to control access to its "own border", in fact it has gone way too far from its own border and is constantly trying to conquer more and more land and all the control is being done in others land. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Tue, July 27, 2004 - 9:30 AM"Trying to conquer more and more land"? Where, exactly? Jordan? Iraq?
I am talking about ISRAELI border, now. Every other country in the world (including those that don't have to stop suicide bombers on a daily basis) has the perogitive determine who may or may not cross the border, what they may or may not bring in to the country, require documentation and run a security check on them before entering. <e.g. soveriegn nations like Saudi Arabia or Iran that will not even let you into the country is they see an Israeli stamp on your passport.> But like seemingly everything else, Israel is the only state demonized for it. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Tue, July 27, 2004 - 12:24 PMhey howard - your question doesn't make sense unless israel *has* declared borders, which it doesn't.
one might reformulate the question in terms of the armistice line:
"why is israel the only state demonized for restricting who can cross the armistice line?"
in which case i would challenge the presupposition: who has demonized israel for this? israel gets criticized (not demonized) for building the annexation wall on palestinian land, and for putting checkpoints all over the occupied territories, and rightly so. but does anyone criticize israel for controlling movement through the armistice lines? -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Thu, August 12, 2004 - 12:32 PMnormally, i would think it's unfair for them to have all those checkpoints, but they exist for a good reason, because people really do go into israel and try to blow people up. i'm not really into the idea of annexation, but that's no reason to think it's a good ideaa to not have security. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Thu, August 12, 2004 - 7:11 PMhey aaron - the checkpoints raise the same question as the wall: if the purpose of checkpoints is to protect israelis from attacks, then the checkpoints ought to be on the green line, and on roads connecting palestinian towns to israeli settlements. in fact, a great many checkpoints serve no observable security function, since they are in palestinian areas, like on roads connecting palestinian villages to other palestinian villages or nearby cities. this means that at least part of the reason is something other than security. amira hass, who discussed this issue in an article in haaretz maybe a year ago, concluded that they were thwere purely for harrassment purposes.
(amira hass, for those who don't know, is a jewish israeli journalist who lives in the occupied territories.)
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Re: there's still the border issue
Fri, August 13, 2004 - 12:07 AMwell aaron, people go and blow themselves there becuase of these checkpoints. once isreali's remove these check points and stop the occupation then the suicide bombers will stop!!!!
so the checkpoints and the wall have no good reason at all -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: there's still the border issue
Fri, August 13, 2004 - 3:21 PMdid they not blow themselves up before the checkpoints existed? also, how do they expect checkpoints to go away if they continue to blow people up? if i blew people up, i would not expect my actions to cause security to be reduced. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Sun, August 15, 2004 - 9:23 AMno they didn't use to blow themselves up before that.
plus they made it clear that if the occupation goes, then they will stop this resistence since there will be no need for it anymore. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Sun, August 15, 2004 - 12:16 PMwhere did you get that from? -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Mon, August 16, 2004 - 12:53 AMthis is a well know fact around here. this is what hammas and other parties are saying and willing to do.
tell me your version of the story
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Re: there's still the border issue
Sun, August 15, 2004 - 9:23 AMno they didn't use to blow themselves up before that.
plus they made it clear that if the occupation goes, then they will stop this resistence since there will be no need for it anymore.
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Re: there's still the border issue
Tue, August 17, 2004 - 5:49 AMi'm not sure when the checkpoints started... the first suicide bombing by a palestinian group against israeli civilians was in 1994, shortly after the goldstein massacre. suicide bombings against military targets started when israel was occupying large parts of lebanon in the 1980's.
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Unsu...
Re: there's still the border issue
Tue, December 21, 2004 - 6:02 PMIts really funny that Moslems who have been the agressors all through out their violent history are whining about a small state of Jews who have the brains&guts to let them know what it has felt like to be on the other end of the club.
I think they should take over everything that they need to have secure borders&kick the Moslems back toArabia.They have never &&will never recognize Any other religions right to exist&proselitize because they are afraid of the failures inherent in a violence based religion.If allah is all powerful he would zap any non believer that insulted him.
I will not ever believe any violence that is told to me to be done in the name of any god,allah,jehovah or what ever .
I do believe in peoples right to self preservation.Except for when it comes to people who have gotten where they are by violence they should be willing to practise non violence to legitimize their existence .
Any land Moslems have has been gained by violence&should be returned to the original owners. -
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Re: there's still the border issue
Fri, December 24, 2004 - 7:07 AMobviously the muslims have to go - they're as bad as jews, and should be treated equivalently. but what about the christians?
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Unsu...
Re: there's still the border issue
Fri, June 3, 2005 - 4:20 PM"I do believe in peoples right to self preservation.Except for when it comes to people who have gotten where they are by violence they should be willing to practise non violence to legitimize their existence "
Name one species or population of humans that has not gotten to where it is through violence.
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